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147568-whats-wrong-with-lfr
Content ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- While true to a certain extent, false expectations will drag down the perceived quality of content faster than anything else. Instead of seeing it as a difficult challenge worth revisiting, many would swear it off as bad content with over the top difficulty. Whether that's true or not, setting the right expectations is so vastly important to online games that it's not even funny. You can see this happening currently with vet dungeons. The game throws them at you the moment you hit 50 and you just aren't going to be geared enough to do them as a fresh level capper. So people still try them and fail - and you see where that's getting us. Edited November 27, 2015 by Frosthaven | |} ---- ---- ---- THIS! I think this would be great. World bosses are already simple enough.. and I think enough people would tolerate a random group wiping a few times when it's just a boss-in-a-box. Like the primals in FFXIV. It wouldn't be so much like LFR as it is just a random dungeon queue with just a world boss there. Each boss on its own 24 hour cooldown maybe for gear but add the satchel with dye/costume/decor as repeatable infinite times per day. This would let the queue be a balanced way of gearing up, while still keeping an adequate playerbase because there's incentive to run multiple times per day. I can't imagine it would be too hard to copy pasta the small area of the world around the world boss into an instance and add it to a queue. FFXIV did it well with a floating platform that looks exactly the same for like every boss with just the background scenery changing and maybe a blue floor instead of a brown one. With the visual art style of Omni-Core this would be even easier for Wildstar lol.. and fits with the lore. You can drop yourself into a computer program in that solo instance in the story chain at level 50.. just do it with world bosses! I am completely opposed to having a true LFR system with GA and DS in it. But the world bosses would be a great idea. They just aren't fun right now mashing 1 button at 3FPS when there's 60 people punishing a 20 person boss. | |} ---- The content has to be dumbed-down in order to be doable by random strangers who don't communicate or coordinate with each other. And that would be a waste of development resources. | |} ---- ---- ---- It's not a binary. There's a lot of room between being solo with people around, and being a hardcore raider. Wildstar manages to hit most of those marks, without making raids into something they're not. Cooperating in an MMO is not a relic. Talking to people is not a relic. People too rushed or bored to do it are the problem, not the games. | |} ---- ---- ---- Yes, very much in favor of instancing the world bosses, though they should keep the open world versions too (people really seem to be enjoying them). Offer a little better loot and force insranced groups to deal with the mechanics, and I thknn you have a winning feature. Probably even a good lead in to GA minis, which lead to x-89, then Kuralak. I have no problem adding a group Finder for GA, but not a fan of an easier version. This has been hashed to death on other threads, but I believe ez mode GA would be run a handful of times, and then those who wanted it would be bored and not have much to do. The current raids work because they keep people engaged for long periods of time. And the big problem with adding these raids is leading to burnout, where people who want to raid the "real" versions farm the ez ones first and get tired of it before they even get to see GA in all its glory. Edited November 28, 2015 by SlyJeff | |} ---- ---- ---- That's because they know what LFR is and they actually did LFR in WoW and FF14. Everybody that played WoW knows that LFR is a DIFFERENT (as in, completely separate) dumbed down version of the actual hard raid (which means, the regular version is untouched and you can't queue in for. Two different difficulties, TWO. For people who ar estill clueless and still dont wan't LFR for wharever reason, WoW has 4 difficulties: LFR (raid finder queue in mode, large raids which you end up 2 manning most of the time) Normal (still joke version of the fight but theyre not treating you like a 3 year old baby anymore) Heroic (you actually have you look at your monitor once or twice) Mythic 20 (now you actually start wiping) Edited November 28, 2015 by Hazz Rang | |} ---- And the argument still stands of people wanting easy raid just so they can raid. That's not what raiding is. It's forming a big group to tackle content that is a challenge. Nerfing the current raids to appease those that want ezmode so it's not a challenge are bad. Bad in the fact they don't get better and bad because it brings a type of player that doesn't even try and the content keeps getting nerfed to appease them. They get used to crappy playstyle and breeze by instead of getting better. They won't rune their gear out and if they do, they will do it incorrectly like put 60% MH on a warrior and 15% crit because they have all waterslots in their gear and don't feel like rerolling their slots. And if you say it won't happen, I'm calling it right now it will if they do go towards it. Fixed Instead of adding a LFR because people want to experience 2 instances compared to everything else, build on what makes Wildstar great. Have content that bridges people to obtain gear to tackle Vet dungeons once reaching 50, by making Adventures good (try to make the small 3, 10-20 minutes and Malgrave a vet type that drops dungeon loot and no more than 30 minutes and not so RNG). and shiphands. Don't have a quest right away to here's 50, do vet dungeons. Bridge Vet dungeons to forming a raid to tackle challenging content, just not GA challenge (world bosses). I could go on and on about how people need to get better, and learn to form groups instead of playing by themselves. I actually would like to see a group finder implemented before a LFR so people can post here, this time running this instance at this time on this day. Sign up now. Must meet x+x+x requirements, and have those requirements selectable, not disgression and done between whispers. Example would be Friday at 9 est, GA run. Options to choose from are Gear selected minimum 80 gear score, max 105 gear score (so people want to experience the content dont feel cheated by zerging). Set required stats for class, and build aka tank/dps/heals. And make a generic setting so just click click click, done. Or for those wanting specific and know what to look for. FULLY RUNED!, check. Range/Melee. How many of each class. Or generic I dont care, just give me 20. | |} ---- Edited November 28, 2015 by mirta000 | |} ---- ---- Edited November 28, 2015 by mirta000 | |} ---- ---- And WoW has lost close to 40% of their playerbase because with all those difficulties there were only 3 raids with 2 tiers in the latest expansion. All those versions take extra time to make and balance. Most people want quality content, not quantity, but when they make more things to do, no one wants them to waste time. Three raid difficulties you can mostly sleep through because you did daily zones and got overgeared? Waste of developer time, waste of player time. | |} ---- WoD started at 12m subs, now it is at 5m subs. They lost way more than 40%, more like 50-55%. | |} ---- ---- ---- I was just thinking about this and wondered the same thing. I mean, right now you can probably get enough people just asking in zone or LFG in the game, or amongst friends on your friend's list or something. The lockouts are also an issue. I mean, for GA, can see that but aren't there a lot of PUGs for that already that fly through it? I dunno, LFR sounds like something would work if you had like 15-20 raid instances really well...that or had separate parts to things that you could hop in and out of. | |} ---- ---- ---- SW:TOR let you queue up for their Story Mode versions. They have three difficulties, Story, Hard and Nightmare. They also had 8 and 16 man versions of each. The higher the difficulty the more mechanics and hp pools you had to deal with. The guild I was with there did SM's to get our set bonuses then progressed on HM. NiM was just a bit too masochistic for us. I would love to see the WB's stuck in instances with an LFR type queue. I also really like your filtering ideas (class A must have X% stat) but that's a bit more complicated than Carbine can or will produce. But IMO their engineering resources really need to be focused on getting the multiqueue feature done as a priority over any LFR system. Heck, I'd even go so far as to say I'd prefer having cross-realm raid capability in place first. | |} ---- I hate getting dragged into these threads but this is just ridiculous. Officially WoD had two tiers but it was essentially three. WoD did fail not due to too many difficulties but due to the only thing to do was raiding. Multiple difficulties use the same assets except they tune the damage and maybe remove some mechanics for the hardest difficulty. The hardest difficulties are harder to balance because they are less forgiving. Edited November 28, 2015 by Saccharin | |} ---- What parallel universe do you live in? Anybody interested in raiding will do the normal GA, you're just complaining because you have a PC with internet right now in front of you. An LFR version of GA means just another way to farm plat, glory, EG, etc, you *cupcake*ing name it, and for those who don't clear GA or DS, can farm for gear to either use or for those who actually raid, salvage and get runes, sets, etc. Now please stop typing if you don't have a clue what LFR is. What else do you want to do in an MMO? ERP? The objective in an MMO is character progression, which means you level up, clear content, get gear. Edited November 28, 2015 by Hazz Rang | |} ---- And that doesn't exclusively mean raiding as Blizzard (and Carbine) found out. That might be what it meant to you, and me once upon a time. | |} ---- This is completely my stance on LFR. LFR was not a bad thing in itself, but the attitude and sort of behaviour of some players was absolutely deplorable. One thing I did like that wow brought in was Flex raids (now wow's current normal mode), that should have been LFR from the beginning in my opinion. As for it's place in wildstar, I'm not sure LFR should be a thing. Do I think that flex raids or the ability to put yourself on a "group finder/group listings" (like the one wow actually implemented with mop) should exist? Yes, especially cross server. It would allow raids to be able to pick up pugs to fill their raid. They should also think about adapting the same lockout system as the flex raids (only able to loot once a week, but able to kill the bosses multiple times) so pugs aren't linked to a lockout. Also, flex COULD work but I really don't think that the wildstar raids should be touched in terms of difficulty. All my raiding friends have always said how fantastic the experience is there and that making it easier would be a travesty. | |} ---- ---- ---- This. I would like a group maker tool for raids. Not a finder where you just queue and afk but where you make a group and say what you want out of people who join. Then have it cross server because lets face it the PVP sides want to do some raids but a lot dont have the members to do it. | |} ---- No reason to be insulting. Really not going to engage with someone who doesn't know how to converse with respect. | |} ---- ---- Agreed. That's pretty much my point. It isn't suitable for LFR in it's current form. Hopefully we'll get something that is suitable for LFR in due course! | |} ---- ---- Look at it like this, let's say lemonade was super popular 8 years ago. So you open a lemonade stand and make the world's best lemonade. However, people don't want lemonade anymore, they want cranberry juice now so you lose your existing customers at a rapid rate and new customers don't stick around either. Ultimately, you go out of business. Saying that what the people want is the problem not the game indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of how to run a successful business. You can not force people to want what you want. You can not force the masses to buy your product if they don't want it. You fit your product to the demographic, not the other way around unless you want your business to crash and burn. | |} ---- ---- ---- Not on a weekly reset. Just charge everyone 4 PAPs to spawn them. | |} ---- I disagree. I've heard numerous raiders and leaders express frustration about getting people, and numerous people playing who left because they saw no point in doing higher difficulties. I never said it was the only reason WoD failed, but it was not an insignificant one. Dungeons suffered and scenarios became non-existent, in part because they spent more time on a few raids with multiple difficulties. | |} ---- ---- ---- In other words, you want LFR but aren't willing to make a case for it and instead chose to use a lot of words to say nothing. This isn't something decided by logic, or at least from the player perspective it isn't. Most games that go this route blow it. As much as I like the Wildstar team, I'd really prefer they get their act together on the things we have, instead of chasing the tiger on a feature that almost certainly won't be the magic bullet people in favor seem to think. There are better ways to keep the playerbase happy, and at the same time not compromise the design goals they've already spent 2 years trying to fine tune. | |} ---- ---- I don't want to sound pessimistic, but I imagine if people started pugging the current raids unmodified via LFR you'd see nothing but complaints about them everywhere until they either nerf the difficulty or everyone stops using LFR. Edited November 30, 2015 by Frosthaven | |} ---- And that brings us right back to the issue many of us have with LFR as automatic matchmaking. If they introduced a LFR list that allowed people to manually form groups, maybe even across servers, to do the current raids I think it would be a wonderful addition and might help defeat the roster boss that keeps a lot of people locked out from raiding. However if they introduced LFR as the queue up and be automatically matched with 19 other people deal we've seen used in, for instance, WoW it leads to complaints, frustration and ultimately a nerf to/the introduction of the LFR difficulty. Just look at the drama already taking place in dungeons because of the wonderful people the queue sometimes throws together, then try to project that picture to raids. tl;dr: Tools that make forming raid groups easier are perfectly fine, automatic matchmaking is not. | |} ---- and if they nerf the difficulty it will be boring, just like wow is. The encounters are balanced and yes its no faceroll content. The problems randoms have in this game not beeing able to stick to a guild shedule due to rl stuff. and a LFR-tool makes it possible for them to just hop into a raid and see GA. If they cant kill the bosses they have to get better to kill the bosses or get more gear with X89 unlock and natural progression. the players who invest more time will kill the bosses more often/faster. At least they would have something to do besides farming dungeons in ilvl90 gear. multiple difficulties is not good for a game. see WoW. its a good idea to have normal mode (GA) with the option of ultrahard encounters by pressing a button (augmentors) of playing certain objectives (maybe fight all 5 bosses at convergence) for bonus/higher ilvl loot. but adding a ultraboring/easy difficulty level is bad for the game. The encounters in both GA and DS have been nerfed multiple times and will continue to be nerfed over time so those PUGs might be able to kill SD and some ele pairs in half a year, who knows... Those raids would be running every evening i assume but with a way bigger playerpool a guild has, so if someone had to leave the raid there would be a replacement via the LFR tool. Edited November 30, 2015 by furoflo | |} ---- +1 | |} ---- ---- Nope, got me completely wrong. LFR is whats wrong with (and killing) the MMO genre. The shift towards viewing gamers as a commodity that can be milked rather than a primary customer is also a huge issue but this isn't the time or place for that discussion. | |} ---- yeah I saw his post and was going to reply FOR you... but looks like you got to it first... I'm still mind boggled how warped the MMO community has become... people trying to say that LFR is the flavor of now should go look at wow's subs since the addition of raid finder. ~ http://www.statista.com/statistics/276601/number-of-world-of-warcraft-subscribers-by-quarter/ hint, the LFR patch was added q4 2011 IIRC. was an absolute turning point as it dries the little content they actually create(in comparison to the money they have to do it) and ruined their strategy because normally they artificially gated the crap out of their content... so to see the content you had to conquer content, now that you don't - the struggle for months on raid tiers doesn't keep you in the game and thus they have been bleeding subs very badly. so please - tell us more about how it's working out great for them... their whole strategy in content pacing and creation has been the same, just LFR and it's trickling effects on the game at work. now people resub when a new content patch hits and they complete everything added in a week or two and don't have the will/interest to keep up with the gear treadmill because they don't need to anymore... | |} ---- Glad to be wrong, next time use more nouns. ;) It really wasn't easy trying to sort out which side you came down on in that first reply. | |} ---- Let's just say instead that the windows are more compressed now, because this is absolutely nothing new in subscription based gaming. | |} ----